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How To Troubleshoot OpenGL/VRam And Optimize Intel/Nvidia Graphics Settings For Use With SN8? (Answer: A Deep Dive Into Graphics Cards, OpenGL Settings And Optimization - Read On, And Thank You, Chad!)

I am new to Starry Night 8 Pro.  I just downloaded it.  I have previously been using Cartes du Ciel, Stellarium, Deep Sky Planner and Sky Tools 3.  All of these have a web based tutorial and/or some YouTube videos available to help people start using the tool.  I have searched the web for similar for Starry Night 8 and have not found anything really useful.

Where are they please?

Starry night is a big place and it has a complex, convoluted and not very clear UI compared to native Windows programs.  I need some help here before I take one of my 3 telescopes out with this thing.

Just post the url please.

Thanks

Pete

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16 comments

  • 1
    Avatar
    Pete Ingram

    Well, not much help here then.

    I have worked with this software and I have to say that I do not like the UI one bit.  A friend has an older version running on his PC and that has a far, far better UI.  It is a proper WIndows product.  I have version 8 and the UI and a lot of its feature leave, at best quite a bit to be desired.  

    What were you thinking when you dreamed up this UI?  PUT IT BACK THE WAY IT WAS.

    I am looking to DOWNGRADE.  I feel I have wasted my money.  I will just go back to using Sky Tools 3.

  • 0
    Avatar
    Growflavor

    Hi Pete,

    1) I was hoping that Keiron would reply saying he would update his older youtube videos to show the power of the SN8 interface.

    • Here is the link to his channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChc1QqCO5Qzh8vBY96dDAbA
    •  
    • I do agree with your suggestion that a few updated, well planned, simple ~ 5 minute intro videos that are then are posted in the SN forums and the SN pages on other online forums such as CloudyNights would benefit Starry Night.  I encourage Keiron to do that and post in all the various SN forum pages...

    2) The short answer for most things (other than simulations...use the Sky Guide panel for that) is the the SN8 "hamburger" menu (2k image pasted below..see the pink arrows..right click and open image in new tab to show full resolution) combined with advanced searches via your favorite PDF reader of the SN8 User manual

    UIs have changed over the years...I started with TheSky run via MSDOS back in the late 80's.  I do suggest that the toggle UI in SN7 & 8 is a powerful & useful direction...I use it all the time and actually like it more than Stellarium's or Space Engine's or Celestia's interface.  Yes it is very different than the more traditional windows interface in Cartes du Ciel or Sky Tools but in my assessment worth learning & works very well.

    Kind regards, Chadwick

     

     

     

  • 0
    Avatar
    Pete Ingram

    @Chadwick,

    Thank you for your reply.  I have worked nightly with SN8 and am now getting the hang of it.  The idea of tutorial videos is, I feel, necessary.  Most major many at all that I have apps have at least a YouTube channel and often there are user supplied videos too.  SN does not seem to have found.

    The hamburger menu system is the current vogue and it works well on a variety of platforms.  A major stumbling block, until I worked it out, was the way SN8 writes into the search box your current menu selection.  This forces the user to manually erase that text before allowing them to proceed to other menu choices. 

     

    It would also be nice if the top menu bar choices registered selected choices as they are made.  Right now it is not possible to see the selected options from the menu bar.  Select and the menu vanishes.

    On two Dell i7 Windows 10 laptops in Favorites > Solar System > Comets and Asteroids > Ida SN will crash every time no matter what I do with shading.

    Can you tell me please how I put up this on=screen widget as I cannot find the menu choice anywhere.  Thanks

    I am getting there with SN but it is pretty uphill.  I bought it mainly because I wanted a better visual experience than Sky Tools and CdC offered and Stellarium rules itself out because it does not support ASCOM native.  Initially I was very disappointed with SN8.  Now I am learning to use it and I still don;t think it's great but I shall stick at it.

    Thank you for your help and patience with me.

    Pete

  • 0
    Avatar
    Growflavor

    Hi Pete,

    RE: "A major stumbling block, until I worked it out, was the way SN8 writes into the search box your current menu selection"

    I also use Dell laptops (Precision m4700 & m6700 with i7 chips & nvidia GPUs) encounter the above...I also find that for text e.g. name searches work better if you do not complete the search term...I usually stop typing just before the last letter...in the beta testing, some users also identified that the search queries sometime behave differently for DSOs depending on how they are typed i.e. with or without spaces, capitalization etc...the DSO database & search index was a main feature update in SN8 v SN7 & I expect it will take time for us users to discover & for SimC to work out the remaining bugs.

    I still need to update to SN8 on my laptop that is with me...once I do I will see if I also get the Ida crash from 'favorites' menu that you report...it may be related to the installer bug...

    I am not clear from the screen shot, to which widget you are referring...did the whole screenshot upload correctly?  If you clarify, I can try to help...

    fyi...it took me a couple of months to get familiar with breadth of features (& make the desired 'user' adjustments for various use situations which I then save as .snf files so I can easily open them each time I want to do that type of project) on SN pro plus despite my being very familiar with Celestia, Stellarium, Space Engine, TheSky, Photoshop, etc...I am finding that to be the case with pretty much any powerful software tool today...

    Kind regards, Chadwick

     

     

  • 0
    Avatar
    Pete Ingram

    Yeah, that was a rubbish screenshot.  Sorry.  Not at all clear.  Going to Favorites > Guides > Altitude Azimuth.  Here's a better pic. Note the arrow.  Hehe.

     

    Thanks.

     

  • 0
    Avatar
    Pete Ingram

    SN8 keeps crashing on my Dell i7 Windows 10 with Intel HD 300 graphics.  Why is it doing this.  It does this on my other Dell i7 8-core that it use dedicated for astro work.  At the moment it is not reliable enough to be used for a whole night's observing.  Lucky we are in the middle of a cloudy heatwave here.

    This needs fixing for sure.

    Thanks

  • 0
    Avatar
    Growflavor

    Hi Pete,

    --the Ida simulation is working ok for me on a fresh custom install...did you do a custom install or a typical install?  also, have you made any adjustments to the shaders in File>>Preferences>>Shaders ?

    --regarding crashes, do either of these match your situation:

    a) there is a known issue reported by Ron if you are using multiple viewers then opening info, add image, or other types of dialog boxes:

    https://support.simulationcurriculum.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360026148933--Bug-SN8-Crashes-When-Closing-Via-File-Exit-A-Second-Viewer-Window-With-Info-Window-Open?page=1#community_comment_360005432074

    b) if you are connected to a scope and have a loose usb connection, at least with SN7 a disconnect would crash ascom then crash SN7...I have not yet 'pulled' out the usb cable to check if better handling was implemented in SN8 ;-)

     

    --for me, that 'widget' you reference shows up while dragging, I do not currently happen know if there is a way to always make it visible, or otherwise customize it :-)

  • 0
    Avatar
    Pete Ingram

    Hi,

    Glad the ida sim works for you.  This points to my PCs.  I shall investigate further and report back.  I have all my drivers and Windows release up to date and both PCs have 3-4 month old Windows installs.  I'll check this on my desktop tomorrow.

    I was not doing anything like the conditions reported in a).  

    No telescope was connected at the time.  Loose USB connections are almost guaranteed to make an app fall over.

    I had the feeling that the widget was part of the dragging process. Thanks for checking.  Much appreciated.,

    Next question, if I may.

    In View > Show Telescope Panel, is there a way to view Alt / Az numbers in place of RA / DEC?  I use a 16" Starmaster Dob and Alt / Az display would be very nice but I can see no way to change the display.

     

    Thanks again for your support,

     

  • 0
    Avatar
    Growflavor

    • I tend to hide the main telescope panel when connected and do most slewing etc by looking at the on screen indicator in SN, using right click slew to, and the tiny scope direction button panel...I do not see anything in the SN manual that indicates being able to display alt-az v. RA Dec in the actual main telescope panel...but since I use equatorial setups others may have better insights in that area for Alt-Az...

     

    • if some models work & others not then that suggests files might be missing...if you are having trouble with models then I suggest verifying that the .3ds files are present in C:\Program Files (x86)\Starry Night Pro Plus 8\Sky Data\Models
    • if all the models are failing...then also playing with various opengl & shader settings & your graphics driver opengl settings...

     

    • if you do have consistent crashing, I certainly will be interested in hearing the details of the specific conditions that cause the crash especially if it ends up not being shader/opengl setting/graphics driver related

    Kind regards, Chadwick

  • 0
    Avatar
    Pete Ingram

    I ran various Favorites > Comet Guides on two PCs.  Two of my Dell Laptops, a Dell E5520 i7, *GB RAM and a Dell E6420, *GB bot crash immediately when I try to run Comet Ida. It is an instant crash.  Click-crash.  Both these PCs have Intel HD grapihs cards.  

    I have tried numerous options of OpenGL and shading always with the same result.  Launch it>crash.

    On my 4 screen desktop, i7 8 core 16Gb Ram and an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 670 + a USB to DVI-17 adapter for the 4th screen Ida runs perfectly any time on any screen.

    On the E5520 I submitted a crash report with my email this AM.  Any help I can give or tests you wish made, I will do.

     

     

  • 0
    Avatar
    Growflavor

    Hi Pete,

    on the machines using integrated Intel graphics, if you have disabled most shader & openGL settings in SN & still get the crash, then I suggest checking your settings in the Intel graphics driver control panel...

    during diagnostics, I would suggest turning of any kind of multi sampling, I would also especially focus on the OpenGL settings.

    at least in the past, integrated Intel graphics usually gets its VRAM by sharing main RAM rather than having dedicated VRAM...I would make sure to check your available RAM while running Starry Night and set your Intel Graphics to be allowed to take as much for VRAM as you can afford...

    in case you are not already aware...many modern www browsers take huge amounts of RAM (I use TheGratSuspender with Chrome & Canary to keep them around 1GB of RAM use each)

    if *GB means 8GB, then hopefully if you just run windows 10, plus SN8 then I suspect that you likely could allocate 1 to 2GB for VRAM for diagnostic purposes & see if you still get the crash on the Intel graphics machines...

    Also, If you are not so familiar with gpu settings, KSP has a decent tutorial I have used a lot for any GPU intensive application (not just KSP ;-)...see especially section 1.1 & section 1.4:

    https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/166079-11x-to-16x-how-to-improve-performance/

    Kind regards, Chadwick

  • 0
    Avatar
    Pete Ingram

    Yes, Chrome's a memory hog alright. to make sure SN8 has as much memory as it can have  Tomorrow (gonna play telescopes tonight) I will shut down everything else and I'll read the article you provided.  Yes, GB should have read 8GB.  Sorry.

    I think this may be a failing in the Intel graphics chip.  I can't change it since it was built on to the main board at manufacture.  That said I'll do whatever I can to help you to help me make this work.  I have near infinite patience with stuff like this.  Just tell me what you need me to do and I'll do it.

    As an aside, I ran SN8 on my Microsoft Surface Pro 2 and Ida ran just fine.  Thus I don't think (right now at least) that this is a memory problem.

    I may need a new laptop.  Thanks guys ;)

     

     

  • 0
    Avatar
    Growflavor

    Hi Pete,

    Too windy & hot outside for me to play with scopes so you get another message from me instead...lol

    Please clarify from what you wrote if the other comet models & 3D binary models and any other models run correctly on the Dell Laptops that are crashing when you run Ida:  re: "I ran various Favorites > Comet Guides on two PCs.  Two of my Dell Laptops, a Dell E5520 i7, 8GB RAM and a Dell E6420, 8GB bot crash immediately when I try to run Comet Ida. It is an instant crash.  Click-crash.  Both these PCs have Intel HD graphics cards.  "

    (I am assuming that no 3D models are running properly on those machines & thus my thought on the vram is not that the machine is short on ram overall, but that some setting in the Intell graphics for VRAM might be set way too low for some reason or that the driver is not behaving properly so could be worth uninstalling & reinstalling the intel graphics driver...with Dell, sometimes the drivers that can be installed must come from the support page for your Dell machine...for my Dells I know with onboard Ethernet cards I have gone directly to the chip maker www page for more up to date drivers, but I forget if that also works for the on board Intel graphics since I run my Dell Precision laptops exclusively on the dedicated Nvidia gpu with Optimus turned off in the BIOS so that the integrate intel gpu stays quiet ).  If the settings in the Intel graphics panel & driver reinstall offer no change in the crash then I suggest you take one of the problem Dell laptops & uninstall, restart, then reinstall SN8...also are you using "typical install" or "custom full data install with the ProgramData folder rename workaround"?)

     

    Kind regards, Chadwick

     

  • 0
    Avatar
    Pete Ingram

    Too windy & hot outside for me to play with scopes so you get another message from me instead...lol

    > I am going out again tonight but just into my garden. At 19:36 it is 92° here in Charlotte, NC

    Please clarify from what you wrote if the other comet models & 3D binary models and any other models run correctly on the Dell Laptops that are crashing when you run Ida:  re: "I ran various Favorites > Comet Guides on two PCs.  Two of my Dell Laptops, a Dell E5520 i7, 8GB RAM and a Dell E6420, 8GB bot crash immediately when I try to run Comet Ida. It is an instant crash.  Click-crash.  Both these PCs have Intel HD graphics cards.  "

    > I went through every Favorite.  Here's the ones that crashed SN8 (before reinstall).

    -Space Station

    - Inner Planets, Deimos

    - Inner Planets, Eclipse of Deimos

    - Inner Planets, Phobos

    - Outer Planets, Amalthea

    - Outer Planets, Epithemeus

    - Outer Planets, Hyperion

    - Space Missions, Apollo, 8 Launch

    Shading was OFF

    There are certainly more but there were so many.  For each crash I sent a repoert.  If you need any particular one please just say.

    (I am assuming that no 3D models are running properly on those machines & thus my thought on the vram is not that the machine is short on ram overall, but that some setting in the Intell graphics for VRAM might be set way too low for some reason or that the driver is not behaving properly so could be worth uninstalling & reinstalling the intel graphics driver...with Dell, sometimes the drivers that can be installed must come from the support page for your Dell machine...

    > I went to the Inter page and downloaded their driver for my chip.  There was no change.  Later, Microsoft put the original driver back as part of their updates.  However, no change.

    for my Dells I know with onboard Ethernet cards I have gone directly to the chip maker www page for more up to date drivers, but I forget if that also works for the on board Intel graphics since I run my Dell Precision laptops exclusively on the dedicated Nvidia gpu with Optimus turned off in the BIOS so that the integrate intel gpu stays quiet ).  If the settings in the Intel graphics panel & driver reinstall offer no change in the crash then I suggest you take one of the problem Dell laptops & uninstall, restart, then reinstall SN8...also are you using "typical install" or "custom full data install with the ProgramData folder rename workaround"?)

    > I used Typical Install for SN8.  Ill try an uninstall and reinstall and then get back to you.

    Thank you for your continued help.  My current opinion is that this Intel HD 3000 graphics chip is incapable of some of the functions required by SN8.  This on NOT SN8's fault.  The graphics card is just too old.  I'll run the 3D stuff on my much newer NVIDIA graphics equipped PC.

  • 0
    Avatar
    Growflavor

    Hi Pete,

    while different from your 'crash' situation, fyi...one other thing to look out for...Keith & I have reported trouble with the .3ds models 'vanishing'...they work initially then eventually only show a ghost presence...it may be related to logging into LiveSky...if you also ever encounter this on your workstation with the nvidia gpu please also post at:

    https://support.simulationcurriculum.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360031847954-3D-binary-stars-moons-satellites-etc-not-rendering-SNP-8-0-2-Win-10-May-2019-release-?page=1#community_comment_360008296814

     

    Kind regards, Chadwick

  • 0
    Avatar
    Pete Ingram

    I am now convinced this problem is due to my ancient (in PC terms) graphics chips in both these old laptops.  The desktop NVIDIA runs firne so I'll stick with that for 3D I reckon.  If the NVIDA PC crashes I'll do as you say and post.

    On another subject I was observing a couple of nights ago using the OnStep ASCOM driver and in the middle of a goto, ST8 crashed.  I submitted a crash report fogetting to put my email in 'cuz I was angry.  For the rest of the night I used CdC and the same driver with no problem.  There seem to be a few teething problems with ST8.  I say this whilst excluding the 3D graphics problem because that is the fault of my ancient laptops.  Are any updates planned for the near future?

     

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