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[UI Issue] Community Feedback On Main Toolbar Configuration Options

drhare

October 21, 2021 16:07

Answered

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So the toolbar is supposed to have ten (10) items.  Whilst the current implementation won’t allow the user to usefully select more buttons from the configurable list, due to a bug, the toolbar can shrink to an even less useful nine (9)…

The Main Menu is one of the configurable items in the Configure Toolbar list in Settings.  If Main Menu is dragged from “Always Visible” to “Hidden” (to remove unused/redundant items from the toolbar), the toolbar now shrinks from showing ten items to only nine items in the toolbar.  In this state the Help button, when dragged to “Always Visible” is never shown in the toolbar - no matter what other items are configured to be visible.

The Main Menu item is also obstinate in being difficult to reposition within the toolbar - usually requiring other items to be moved in relation to the Main Menu item in the list.

The toolbar really does need more work.  As is, it is both unfriendly and inconsistent in its operation.  With the Toolbar being the main interface, this item really needs to function properly.

SkySafari Pro 7 (1021)

iPad Pro 12.9” iPadOS 15.0.2

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33 comments

• 0
  
  Rickkeppler October 21, 2021 18:15

  Confirmed. Once removed, both the portrait and landscape mode toolbars are 9 items and Help cannot be returned to view. Same goes for my iPhone in landscape mode. In fact, once that change is made, the default display is 9 items and cannot be changed back to 10 as far as I can tell.

  As to Menu, it should be fixed in place. It is too important to move into a position where it can not be accessed. I haven’t tried moving it to a non displayable position yet but I guess I should… I think I’ll try on the iPhone first…  Apparently it is locked into an always visible position on the iPhone portrait mode. That is a great solution as well. It still allows positioning but maintains its presence no matter what. Good thinking.

  SS7.1021
  iPhone 12 Pro iOS 14.8
  iPad Pro iPadOS 14.8

   

  

  

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  Pedro Braganca October 21, 2021 18:44

  Thank you.  Thought we had fixed this.  The issue is that you can drag other items above the menu item - a bit of a hack - and it causes the Menu to be hidden.  

  DevOps reference: https://starrynight.unfuddle.com/a#/projects/7965/tickets/by_number/1448

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  Rickkeppler October 21, 2021 19:07

  and I tested it some more in Landscape mode on both the iPhone and iPad as shown above. The Main Menu icon can not be moved into a not visible location. I tried moving stuff in front of it but it refused to move out of a displayed position which is perfect. Only minor issues are just the change from 10 to 9 items on the main bar and the Help icon which cannot be put back into play.

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  drhare October 21, 2021 19:13

  I fundamentally disagree that Menu should be a fixed item that cannot be moved.  

  Other than the “Social” items, of NO interest or value to some users, Help & Settings items are replicated as selectable buttons.  The “Menu” item should be able to be moved according to user preference; if you want it, configure it.  If you don’t want or need it, allow it to be hidden in favour of other items.

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  Rickkeppler October 21, 2021 20:21

  Uh, so just how DO you plan on accessing settings or menu to get at the settings submenu contained within if neither is visible? I kind of like this new main bar setup. Like I said, it is a major change and requires a bit of adjustment to use it, but all the functionality can be gotten to with just 5 main bar icons. The rest of them are implemented on the screen via new options. I have used SS for a long, long time and this seems pretty good except for the compass button which I CANNOT disable. It is the only reason I can see to stay with SS6.

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  drhare October 21, 2021 21:02

  Menu includes Settings and Help in addition to the new Social features.  Surely you have seen that Settings and Help are also independent items that can be included as individual buttons.  Obviously you must have one or other of Menu OR Settings button.

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  Rickkeppler October 21, 2021 21:23

  Yes but on the iPhone, only 5 items are visible. Now one has to get a lot more judicious in which icons get displayed if one wants to use the app without constantly turning the phone from portrait to landscape. As mentioned by Pedro a week or so ago, all sorts of functionality has been moved into new positions with new accessibility. I wasn’t too keen on some of it initially as well but I finally have it mostly figured out. It is definitely different and there is a learning curve. Finding and using them are key to whether one is going to like using this new release.

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  drhare October 21, 2021 21:51

  There’s no question that iPhone controls and available real-estate need to be considered - but not in sacrificing iPads larger display and utility. Arguably, the Menu button has significantly more relevance to iPhone than to iPad.

  The goal here should be to preserve UI flexibility, per SS6 Pro.  If you want to use the “Menu” button, requiring more button presses, that’s great - but allow fast one-button access to Settings and Help where preferred.  These two models don’t have to be mutually exclusive; UI flexibility and access to key controls can be mainlined with appropriate logic. 

  Remember, Settings, Help and Night Vision are already in the list of configurable options (but don’t work properly) in addition to being integrated with the combined menu.

  Whilst the developers clearly favour a reduced Toolbar, it adds no benefit to usability.  Using the full available width of the screen allows more buttons - and greater flexibility - in button placement to match the user’s needs.

   

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  Rickkeppler October 21, 2021 21:57

  Right now, my only concern is being able to disable the compass. I just grabbed both the Plus and the Pro 7.1022, quickly went through and looked for Disable Compass/AR and I don’t see it anywhere. I’m done testing.

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  Pedro Braganca October 21, 2021 22:27

  First, thank you for all you feedback - we read it all and really appreciate you taking the time.  We are always gathering data and evaluating our decisions.  Sometimes there isn't enough information to move in one direction or another.  Sometimes what seems like a small change, is actually very involved and can have other consequences as many features and UI elements are intertwined.  We also understand that a specific issue can be very important to you and it can be challenging as developers who have a lot of empathy towards our users to balance those needs with other priority issues.  We've been rough grinding, fine grinding, polishing, and it will probably take a little while longer to get the figuring just right.  But we're listening and if something is not there or right just yet, give us a little time.

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  drhare October 22, 2021 00:11

  Hi Pedro.  Thank you for the follow-up.  My following comments are offered as constructive commentary on the specific issues of the Toolbar.

  Of essential items that perhaps need to be resolved, prior to public release of SS7, is the Toolbar - this being a primary control interface for the entire product.  Whilst acknowledging that various other issues can (and will likely) be resolved in future updates, the Toolbar needs to be robust and predictable in its function.  Frustration with the primary UI will impact perception of the entire product.

  The Menu button is undoubtedly a significant new feature of SS7 - and is perhaps of greatest importance to iPhone with its restricted screen size.  For iPad, with significantly greater screen real-estate, individual function buttons provide faster and more flexible access to key controls.  As evidenced by the Configure Toolbar options (that include discrete Settings, Help and Night Vision buttons) this was presumably the intention of the UI design.

  Clearly it is necessary to ensure that either Menu or Settings buttons are one of the selected Toolbar buttons; program logic can ensure that one of these items is selected.

  In context of flexibility, the full-width (but hide-able) toolbar of SS6 was an ideal - providing the greatest flexibility of Toolbar configuration.  As is, restricting the Toolbar to a proportion of the available screen width serves no functional benefit.

  Whilst addressing Settings issues, a further issue in need of a fix is the lack of background/highlight contrast for the selected item in the left pane of the Settings page.  This has been described (and acknowledged) in a separate thread.  That said, the Toolbar icons would also benefit from increased background contrast from the underlying chart.

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  Eric Klaszus October 24, 2021 05:34

  Rick - I think you can disable the compass now.

  Settings - appearance & behaviour - “Tilt to use compass” .  Toggle on and off. 

  More to the topic of this thread, I like the menu button.  I would be filled with dismay if it wasn’t present in the toolbar. The whole premise of the new look is based on clearing the screen of clutter. You don’t need 10 tools open in the toolbar along the button of the screen, only a few are needed.   Sweep all the others under the “Menu” rug to maintain a super clean sky map screen.  Everything else is one tap away.  Clean clean clean. 

  Side note: I had both SS6 & SS7 open at some point and my 7 year old son was curious about them. I showed him both and how they looked a bit different, and he specifically pointed to the toolbar in SS6 and said “this one is messy”.  Then to SS7 he said “this one is much nicer”.  

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  drhare October 24, 2021 09:54

  I note that the subject of this thread has been changed.

  Eric.  At no point have I suggested that the “Menu” item should be removed from the UI in its entirely - only that it remains configurable (as other items are) in whether it appears on the User’s toolbar or not.  Any item that is not of use, or is desirable, should be (de)selectable to fit the users requirements.  In the ideal world, in addition to choosing the items that appear in your toolbar, you would be equally able to choose which items appeared within the menu list accessible from the Menu button.  This arrangement would fit the needs of the greatest number of Users - in allowing the arrangement that you prefer.

  Whilst respecting you own point of view, I disagree with it.  The SS6 toolbar ribbon (as implemented on iPhone) was far superior to the new toolbar concept - as it offered considerably more flexibility in function.  For iPad, with its larger display, the ability to completely completely hide unneeded/unnecessary items (with a switch) was simple and intuitive - as was ordering the items in the toolbar.  The new layout lacks flexibility in having a fixed number of buttons - and in many cases requires more taps of the screen to access frequently used functions.

  This is a “pro” product.  UI flexibility was, and still should be, a key aspect of its design.

   

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  Rickkeppler October 24, 2021 16:06

  Thanks Eric, but that setting switch has been there since, well, I don’t recall which version of SS. To see what I want disabled, tap the compass icon at the top right of the main screen display. The Settings switch is then overridden and totally ignored. I’m running SS6 on my Android and iPad tablets and my iPhone. There is no compass thing visible anywhere, and that is how it will stay. I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the compass/AR icon action FOR THOSE WHO WISH TO USE IT! I just want a simple totally reversible way to disable it, no different than turning off the sunlight scatter we call daylight by toggling Atmosphere. To say that the compass icon and resulting re-enabling of tilt control and associated AR is in some sense necessary to the app’s ability does not compute! I programmed for years back in the day. BASIC, FORTRAN, Pascal, Modula-2, dabbled in ADA, then went on to C, C++ and variants. Now, I don’t have a clue about the nitty gritty specifics of app development for iOS or Android, but I DO have a high level of general knowledge of what goes into a program and logic flow.

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  Rickkeppler October 24, 2021 16:44

  drhare, To me, this new UI design is really interesting and a bit different. It opens new doors to future potential. It could use a bit of tweaking but I’d love to be able to use it more. Unfortunately I cannot let one aspect interfere with my preferred use so I will stay with SS6 for now. If 9 or 10 main menu slots isn’t enough, I don’t know how having 11 will be any different for you, so it sounds like you need to stay with SS6 as well.

  In my personal case, I do not use any of the social media stuff, nor do I want to. I don’t care what anyone else is looking at, nor do I care what they have to say about it until after I have done my observations possibly. Even then, not so much. Preconceived notions based upon someone else’s descriptions from a different set of environmental circumstances are, in general, counterproductive in my opinion. I don’t use any feature that takes control of the display as I turn, rotate or otherwise manipulate the device. I set it down or I push it aside in a long arm flexible holder when I don’t actively need it, but when I pick it up, it had best be displaying exactly the region I was looking at when I moved it out of view. I hold the device in weird and wonderful ways at times, and a button that can get inadvertently pressed by an errant finger or thumb which alters where I have set the device to ‘point’ is most definitely not for me. They might as well add one that randomly changes my location on Earth.

  So the interface is what it is. Nothing personal, but this just sounds like more of the back in the day moaning about how the CLI is so much better and how arcane and esoteric mnemonic program names were better to keep the user in the dark about how things work. A mouse and windowed screens with clickable settings, who needs that? Yes, this new method is a little different for sure, but the youth of today will suck it up like a vacuum cleaner, jumping hoops around the app, not caring about my old fuddy duddy thoughts on the matter. I DO agree with you in that it would be nice to enable or disable a lot of the submenu items. That might eventually have to be the case if there is enough user demand, but for now, getting the new concept working is paramount.

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  drhare October 24, 2021 18:20

  Rickkeppler.  I believe we are in broad agreement that the new SS7 Toolbar is a retrograde step - sacrificing flexibility of the UI for a new aesthetic.  Flexibility of SkySafari UI was a key aspect of this product.

  The ribbon toolbar found in SS6 and earlier versions usefully accomodated user preferences for toolbar buttons (adding or removing buttons as preferrred) and allowed an optimal UI for different sized screens of iPad and iPhone.  The new toolbar implementation sacrifices this flexibility for a fixed number of buttons - offering no technical benefit.

  As you observe, the new Social Media functions may be of no interest to some users.  To be saddled with a fixed button that provides no useful function to some users is to the detriment of the package.  Some functions behind the Menu button are already available as discrete buttons.

  The ideal solution would be to restore the previous on/off button selection - and free positioning of those buttons - along with a new equallly configurable Menu button.  The new Menu button would allow selection of which functions are available behind this button.  This solution would provide full flexibility for all.

  I hope to have outlined above that the ideal solution is to provide choice in both selection of toolbar buttons and a configurable Menu button - as doing so would usefully serve both camps.  Those Users that like the new compact UI, with menu button, are happy - as would those that prefer the [previous functionality] of a fully configurable toolbar ribbon, adding or removing discrete buttons as their need requires.  As such, everyone’s needs and preferences would be accommodated.

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  Rickkeppler October 24, 2021 19:52

  No, I definitely said I like the new layout. This includes how the main Toolbar works and the way access for a lot of the more used items has been moved to on-screen menu toggles. I had it down to 5 icons which are required to get at all the functionality of what I use on my iPhone portrait mode operation. That same icon order is what I had on my landscape and iPad menu bar layouts for the first 5 positions. I leave the other 5(4) positions to some icons that make things a bit easier to access, but overall I tend to use the main 5 and the on-screen pop-up toggles for everything necessary.

  What I don't like are how the items are arranged in some of the submenus, and that includes the main Menu icon. Social media could be grouped as such. That is an icon which would, for me, immediately wander off into the oblivion of the never seen. I have absolutely no interest in such. Other people live for this sort of thing, and so be it. They could, and should be able to make sure such a 'Social' icon is presented in a prominent place of their choosing on the main toolbar. But these are minor changes/enhancements/re-organizations. 'Settings' is a special case though. It MUST be placed somewhere it is always available. It is akin to Preferences and Options in the windowed world. I still think it should be fixed on the main toolbar in some manner, on its own. Right now it is stuffed into Menu with two other items I use a lot, Night mode and Help (usually to get at the current app version number, but occasionally to read up on how something specific which I never normally use or only use sporadically to see how something is supposed to work)

  I want a product that is solid and operates properly. A fixed main screen icon which overrides my desire to NOT change the screen viewpoint is simply not acceptable to how I use the app, so the SS7 app has wandered off my devices for now. It may return from time to time for a quick check as updates get released. I spent a LOT of time testing a lot of stuff and I will leave that up to others for now.

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  drhare October 24, 2021 20:10

  I still believe we are agreeing with each other 🙂

  Social Media - no interest.

  Toolbar - inflexible, needs improvement.

• 0
  
  Keiron Smith October 24, 2021 20:18

  Thank you for the essential feedback shared in this post!  

  Introducing UI changes in software is always challenging, and clearly understanding why the current implementation does or does not work for you is deeply insightful.

  Rick, an independent Settings tab can now be opted for on the main tool bar as well.  Is this the kind of configuration you are asking for?  Perhaps we have implemented this change since you last used the app?

  

  

  Your concern about the AR button is duly noted!

  Thanks!

   

   

   

   

   

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  Rickkeppler October 25, 2021 04:57

  Hi Keiron,

  Yes, I noted ‘Settings’ being available quite a while ago, but I don’t mind it being placed within the ‘Menu’ submenu. It is there with ‘Night’ mode which I use a lot, and ‘Help’ which I use sporadically. The rest of the ‘Menu’ submenu items I don’t recall. I guess they are mainly the social media access items and pretty much indicates their usefulness to me.

  Some sort of packaging is required when going to 5 toolbar items in portrait mode on the iPhone. I actually now find it easier to get at the settings from the ‘Menu’ item. I also like Night mode being there as well. It is just one layer deep and can still be accessed when required without leaving it out exposed when I think I am hitting Time on SS6, but hit Night instead. I rarely use the in-depth ‘Settings’ once I am out observing and intensively using SS. Being able to get to the star and DSO magnitudes from the main screen is great. Being able to toggle the new items such as Meridian, Ecliptic, Asterisms, etc from there now is awesome as well. No searching for which entry to activate within layers of ‘Settings’ submenus to get at these items, while observing, is wonderful. My choice on the toolbar would be to have the ‘Menu’ with the ‘core’ operations. A separate ‘Observe’ menu very much similar to what is present now. A ‘Social’ menu with all the social media items. A ‘Scope’ menu like it is currently. A ‘Selection’ menu much as it is now since several options currently in it are not available from the new screen selection pop-up semi-circular menu. And the ‘Search’ which I use fairly intensively. That is six entries. ‘Search’ could easily be moved into the ‘Menu’ reducing that to five to fit the portrait iPhone SS Toolbar. And you know where the ‘Social’ menu will end up on my devices. 😃

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  Rickkeppler October 25, 2021 14:50

  Further to the issue, many items on one submenu belong in another. A super example is the Selection Menu where we can find ‘Add to Observing List’, ‘Create Observation’, and ‘Show Observations’. These belong in the Observe menu. There is a common denominator in those three somewhere - tongue in cheek.

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  Keiron Smith October 25, 2021 16:20

  Rick,

  As you know, the Selection Menu where we can find ‘Add to Observing List’, ‘Create Observation’, and ‘Show Observations’ is exactly that same way in SS6.  There is strong logic for the arrangement as it is.

  Thank you for the continuing feedback.

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  Rickkeppler October 25, 2021 17:27

  Yes, BUT now that you are fixing the menu on certain devices to 5 possibilities, there is no reason to have a Selection menu. If those three items were moved into the Observe menu, and the remaining 5 items in the Observe menu are screen accessible, that Tool bar menu item could be shuffled off into the landscape only or never seen areas. It would be a main toolbar icon that is not required other than for backwards user compatibility.

  I thought you were planning on moving a lot of the action to the main screen. If this isn’t going to be the case, then I’ll go with drhare and agree that you should leave the tool bar and config exactly as is in SS6. Add in some extra accessibility to certain high use items on-screen but leave the rest alone.

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  Keiron Smith October 25, 2021 17:40

  Introducing UI changes is always challenging.  We are trying very hard from the beginning to strike the right balance.

  Your feedback is very much appreciated.

   

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  drhare October 30, 2021 17:57

  Release notes for SS7 build 1024 fixed bug-list announces bug #1448 to have been fixed.  Unfortunately not so…

  The Menu item now cannot be hidden (unfortunately as, per discussion above, the ability to ability to suppress the Menu item in deference to the Settings button is some cases is actually desirable).  Now, moving a hidden item (such as Help) above Menu in Configure Toolbar causes the toolbar to still be reduced to 9 items.

   

  

  

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  Pedro Braganca October 30, 2021 18:03

  Thank you for testing.  Weird - I can only replicate if i move the Help icon into the top 10.  We can't hide the Menu button since it contains features that you can't access elsewhere.  It will also be a placeholder for other functions in the future.  Hopefully, you are still able to do everything else with the other 9 icons.

  DevOps reference: https://starrynight.unfuddle.com/a#/projects/7965/tickets/by_number/1498

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  drhare October 30, 2021 18:12

  The so-called fix, that doesn’t resolve the nine-icon problem, makes the toolbar even less configurable.  

  Sorry, but SS7 Pro is going backwards - making staying with SS6 even more desirable.

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  drhare October 30, 2021 22:24

  Pedro

  By far the simplest solution to this issue is to restore the previous Toolbar Ribbon - and the ability to individually enable/disable each of the Toolbar buttons as found in SS6.  There only needs to be one programatically enforced rule - in that you must have either the Menu or Settings button enabled in the Toolbar.

  This arrangement should satisfy all potential Users (i.e., the customers) in that they can enable as few - or as many - of the Toolbar buttons as meets their specific needs or desire.  This simple step also fulfils the goals of the developers in introducing new features and functionality within SS7 - such as the new Menu button and its Social Media functions.

  Those users who prefer compact interface of the current SS7 implementation will still have access to this option per the new design.  Those users who prefer discrete buttons of the SS6 interface are similarly catered for.  Everybody, is happy - and the SkySafari Developers sell more licences to enchanted customers.

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  Pedro Braganca October 31, 2021 01:51

  Thank you drhare.  I understand this is important to you and likely others.  We are listening as I said and open to further improvements.  There are a number of factors we have to consider - give us a bit of time to figure it all out.

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  drhare November 06, 2021 11:54

  The nine-icon problem appears to be resolved in 7.0.1 (1027) - but now saddled with the enforced Menu Button.

  Interestingly, I note that the illustrations in the App Store shows SS7 Pro as (more usefully) having eleven Toolbar Buttons…

   

  

   

  The previous toolbar ribbon, with buttons that could be enabled or disabled to suit user-needs, was far more flexible… :-)